Some midi cc won't map?

Question

Hi

I'm using a digital mixer (SQ5) which sends midi cc as a mixer and control surface for Kyma. I've got a midi controller layer on the mixer which is sending and receiving midi cc to Kyma (sending via Kyma Connect) as the SQ5 is connected to my Mac.  When I learn a VCS control the widgets are succesfully mapping to the faders as I move them.  However, some faders don't map.  My faders are set to send out midi cc on channel 2 and i can see in the midi window that the correct midi message is coming in but it just won't map for some. E.g. cc11 on midi channel 2.  i've checked the global map and couldn't spot anything obvious there.

What am I missing?

Many thanlks

Geoff

Comments

What is the procedure you use to "learn" the mapping? Thanks.

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Right click on widget then ‘learn’ and then move fader.

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Could you please make a screen capture of the MIDI messages log just after you've moved the cc11 channel 2 fader? Thanks!

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Hi, it’s really hard to grab a screenshot because there are a load of Kyma Connect messages that are constantly streaming (eg Cc118 on channel 16). I think this is it talking back and forth with Kyma, possibly Continuum related but it makes grabbing a screenshot impossible and even if you scroll back through the midi log because the data is always coming in it won’t hold still.

These spurious midi messages can interfere with the midi learn functionality but I’m sure this isn’t the problem in this case as I have no problem with other faders mapping, it’s just the one that sends cc11.
Is it something related to Continuum sending cc11 also as velocity perhaps? I’ve tried midi channel 1, that also don’t work.
I’ve also tried assigning the cc directly using the VCS editor (right click on widget, midi, cc, 11). No dice (but again does work for other cc).
A solution of course is don’t use that fader but my mixer is hardwired one terms of what cc’s it can send (cc00 to cc31) and I was hoping to use all 32 faders!

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I think I've narrowed down the problem.  It's just to do with cc11 and I'm 99% sure it's because that's what the Continuum is sending for Z (expression) in Kyma mode.  It won't let me change that.  So even though I've tried sending cc11 on channel 1 (the Continuum just sends Z from ch2 to ch16) from my control surface it seems that cc is locked out.  

A shame as it means a redundant fader on my mixer/control surface.  I might try to explore a converter using Bome or something unless you have any other ideas?

For avoidance of doubt, Kyma Connect is connected to Continuum editor using the vPacarana ports.  Continuum editor is in Kyma Mode.  And my SQ5 mixer/midi is sending directly to Kyma Connect.  
Thanks

Answer 1

Hi ghood,

you can take a simple .kym sound to demonstrate just that fader and take the screenshot like this.

Comments

Hi Roland.  My event log is full of the information which Kyma Connect, Pacarana and Continuum editor are sending back and forth though, so it clogs up quickly (cc117 and cc118 on ch16 and cc107 on ch1 I think, from memory).

I'll try and get a screenshot later to show.

Answer 2

Those extra MIDI CC messages are not originating with KymaConnect. The CC118, and other CC messages on channels 15 and 16 are from the Continuum's protocol. If you power off the Continuum those messages should cease.

The Continuum's "native Kyma" protocol uses CC11 for the Z-axis information. The Continuum can handle up to 16 simultaneous touches so it is possible for CC11 to originate on any channel. I believe that the Pacarana consumes all of the CC11 messages while in "Continuum mode" and they never reach the VCS. This also applies to CC74, which is used by the Continuum in native Kyma mode for the Y-axis (MPE uses this as well). Those CCs are just not available for VCS or other duties when Kyma is controlled by the Continuum using the native Kyma protocol.

This is not part of your problem, but for the sake of completeness, the Pacarana will also consume all channel 1 CCs when Kyma's VCS is set up in MotorMix mode.

MPE does not use CC11 (it uses channel Aftertouch for Z-access), but as I mentioned it does use CC74. You could gain use of the CC11 for your fader if you could coax Kyma and the Continuum both into MPE mode. I have done this through trial and error but it is not an easy, repeatable process. This is not the fault of Kyma or the Continuum but a reflection of the fact that MPE just became an official standard recently and there devices with different interpretations, of different versions of the MPE spec, out in the wild. So while it is possible to use the Continuum as a MPE controller for Kyma I can't really recommend it now as a work around for your fader issue. Besides, the Continuum and Kyma work so well together when using the native Kyma mode it would be hard to give that up.

Comments

Thank you! As I suspected, I’ll have to find another way. Either converting cc11 before it gets to Kyma or just ditching use of that fader. Thanks!

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Ps. Presumably it would be good if Kyma could adopt MPE+ protocol
So that the 14bit Z could be achieved, rather than relying solely on Cc11?

Answer 3

As a workaround I'm using Bome software to change the Cc from 11 before it gets to Kyma. And convert it back again after leaving but before my mixer/midi controller. So bi directional motorised faders are working fine and full use of all my faders!

 Thanks